The Systemic Way
The Systemic Way Podcast is a therapy and mental health podcast featuring conversations with experts, practitioners, researchers, and people with lived experience from the worlds of systemic psychotherapy, family therapy, psychology, social work, and community practice. Hosted by Sezer and Julie, two systemic and family psychotherapists, the podcast explores mental health, relationships, trauma, resilience, social justice, culture, and change. Through engaging discussions on theory, practice, and real-world experiences, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how systemic and relational approaches can support individuals, families, organisations, and communities.
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Music by Rena Paid
The Systemic Way
The Divided Island - Film as Systemic Intervention: In conversation with filmmakers Cey Sesiguzel, Andreas Tokkallos and guest co-host Dr Emilios Lemoniatis.
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Join us for a compelling exploration of, The Divided Island, a groundbreaking documentary film that delves into the complex history, identity, and shared humanity of Cyprus. In this episode, we sit down with the film’s creators - director Cey Sesiguzel (Turkish Cypriot) and co-producer Andreas Tokkallos (Greek Cypriot) - as they reflect on their journey of collaboration and friendship, the stories that shaped their film, and the ways art can bridge even the deepest divides.
We are also joined by Dr Emilios Lemoniatis, a consultant child psychiatrist, systemic psychotherapist and Cypriot Greek who joins us as a special guest host for this special episode.
Through our conversation, we unpack the documentary’s key themes: the legacy of division, the impact of generational trauma, the search for missing stories, and the resilience of families caught between history and hope. Together, we ask: What does it mean to be Cypriot today? How can shared cultural strengths and systemic thinking create paths toward healing?
Whether you’re familiar with Cyprus’s history or new to its story, this episode offers a thought-provoking dialogue on identity, reconciliation, and the power of storytelling to inspire change.
https://www.thedividedisland.com/
The Divided Island challenges the often hostility-driven narratives perpetuated by mainstream media, offering instead a pursuit of truth through deeply personal interviews - from those whose lives, homes, and country were torn apart, to the new generation of Cypriots yearning for peaceful reconciliation. The filmmakers aim to bring an unbiased, shared understanding of a complex issue and foster a narrative towards a future peaceful solution to the ‘Cyprus problem’.
As battles persist in Gaza and Ukraine, attention turns to the 50th anniversary of the conflict that tore apart the tranquil holiday island of Cyprus.
SPEAKER_01Unless the present flames are quenched, and quenched quickly, our deliberations will not be an inquiry, they will be an autopsy. Should remind us that this is a very dangerous situation.
SPEAKER_00Both sides they want to protect their own killers. Both sides try to prove that the other is to blame, whether this is the pilot. Unless it is self-defense.
SPEAKER_07In today's episode, Julie and I have the honour and the privilege to talk with two filmmakers and a child psychiatrist and systemic therapist about a wonderful and moving documentary that's recently been made and released called The Divided Island, which focuses on Cyprus and the war and the history and the legacy of the war in Cyprus. And myself being a Turkish Cypriot, was very interested in watching this film and connecting and reflecting on my own stories. But the filmmaker is um Turkish Cypriot director Jay Sesikuzen and was co-produced by a Greek Cypriot and his close friend Andreas Tokalas. And they're from a business, their own business called Two Fresh Productions. And the child psychiatrist and systemic family therapist is a colleague by the name of Emilios Limaniatis. And we had the wonderful opportunity to hear everyone's reflections and thoughts about the documentary itself. I'd pass to you, Judy, to talk a little bit about the context of the film and what it covers in relation to the Cyprus issue.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so July 20th, 2024 marked the 50th anniversary of the Turkish intervention and partitioning of Cyprus in response to a kuptetat backed by the Greek military junta. Nicosia remains Europe's only divided capital, with the north largely inhabited by Turkish Cypriots and the south by Greek Cypriots. The Divided Island aims to foster a narrative that aims towards a peaceful future solution. It challenges often hostile narratives in the media, focusing instead on the pursuit of truth through deeply personal interviews from those whose lives, homes, and country were torn apart and younger generations of Cypriots who yearned for a peaceful reconciliation. The subject matter of the film deals with issues that are relevant to everyone, regardless of whether they've got a connection to Cyprus or not. And the director of the film says ultimately he hopes that the documentary highlights the humanity and complexity of the issue in a way that sparks conversations for generations to come. I think that gives you a real taster of how it links to our systemic world. And I'm gonna ask you, César, as a Turkish man, what it was like for you and some reflections on the film.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, um, as a Turkish Cypriot.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_07Um yeah, watching the film. So we went and watched the film in preparation for the documentary, then having the opportunity to sit alongside the filmmakers who um, as I said, one is Turkish Cypriot, one is Greek Cypriot, and then us invite in a Greek Cypriot colleague, Emilios. It was a really interesting dynamic of the conversation, and we got to share a lot of a kind of shared um experiences of trauma, the war, how we've understood some of that, but also how it's explored and thinking about ideas about how this film um can be seen as a um a systemic intervention and what might come from a film like this, and how it might impact a community that had been struggling for many many years and continues to struggle to really come to terms with what happened um over 50 years ago. So it was a real um emotional experience, and the film itself, when we went and watched it in the cinema, there was tears, there was laughter, but there was a it was a real um emotional experience for people not just of kind of Cypriot heritage, but something that will um resonate with lots of people who have experienced war, displacement, and um the atrocities that kind of follow. What about you, Julie? Was there anything um you might share in the conversation? Because you had a particular position, didn't you? You had the two Turkish Cypriots um and the two Greek Cypriots, so and then you had four Cypriots um and and then four men. So I just I was quite curious about your position and how how you felt during that conversation.
SPEAKER_04I think I think uh my memory of going back into having the conversation was that you know we were we were on screen and I was looking at the four of you, and I guess I was really struck by I suppose how the the story and the narratives of of the war had been passed down to all of you as children. So I was kind of seeing you all as as children actually, and how those stories were woven into your your your beings and your your understanding, and then sort of kind cutting forward to to now, and here you were having this conversation actually, and I think having the conversation in a way that the filmmakers would have hoped in terms of kind of exploring and thinking about peace and just being able to sit opposite each other and listen and to kind of hold those differences um in a variety of ways. So that that that's what stood out for me. It was really moving, and I can't ignore also the aspect of you all being men because I was sort of wondering about intergenerationally about what are the factors that supported you in a way being able to have that conversation. Um, so that was some of the things that came to me when when we were talking. Um, and I guess I just wanted to add as well, like when I went to go and watch the film, like I didn't know if I was going to be touched. I didn't have those those particular narratives woven into me, and it really blew my mind. Like I absolutely loved the film, and there's so much to kind of um take away, like you said, of thinking about the documentary as like an act of activism, but also thinking about how you take it into a room to be with families, and also my own stories of displacement that are in my family. So it's it's it's so beautifully done and so draws you in to really reflect and think and understand these, you know, this issue which cuts across many different spaces around the world.
SPEAKER_07You know what struck me about um Andreas and Jay, that it felt such like an authentic um hope in this idea of like this systemic intervention idea, it the hope of doing something, this film creating something, movement to peace or unity. Um it didn't feel like it was the kind of um afterthought. We've done this film, and oh, this is the responses, and now it really felt like it was um such a strong message from the way they made the film, from the way they researched the ideas, the way they put the story and the scenes together, and we get to hear about that and how curious they were about us as therapists and our reading of the film. That was really interesting, and I felt like we could have just spoken for hours about that stuff. So, yeah, of course, as a Turkish Cypriot, um I was really, really um moved by the film and the conversation. So we hope you will enjoy.
SPEAKER_04Welcome, Andreas and Jay, to the Systemic Way. We're really honoured and lucky to have two filmmakers to join us this evening to talk about your film, The Divided Island. But before we get there, it would be really great. We always ask everyone to just briefly introduce themselves to our listeners um and tell us a little bit about yourselves.
SPEAKER_08Great. Uh well, thanks for having us. Uh I'll I'll go first. Uh I'm Andreas, um, I'm the producer of the Divided Island.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I'm Jason Scuzel. I'm the producer and director of the Divided Island. And Andy and I have been running our video production business since 2009, 15 years, and this is our first foray into the world of feature film documentaries. So our bread and butter is corporate and commercial work, but we decided to put our filmmaking talent um to the test with something that was deeply important to us from a social and passion project level.
SPEAKER_08Oh, Jay, that was much better intro than I gave over.
SPEAKER_04It's a great intro, and I know that we want to sort of get into understanding more about the film, but I I had I I went and watched it last night, and I know when I was there. And being systemic family therapists, we like to know about relationships. And I think someone asked about your personal relationship to each other. So it would be great if you could just I know you've worked together for 15 years, but your relationship's much deeper than that and kind of is important in terms of the film.
SPEAKER_08Yes, it is. Um, so me and Jay actually uh we went to secondary school together. Um we we were good friends there, and our friendship got got got even closer as we as as as we kind of we made little horror movies at school together, basically. Uh that was kind of what set a light the passion for filmmaking. Um some films were good, some not so good. Uh but we really enjoyed the the process of of filmmaking. Then fast forward we both went to film university, studied um film uh both at different universities. Um but we would still kind of meet up um with a group of friends and we'd just be talking about films all day long, basically. Um and fast forward a bit further, we started a company as things we can assume. Uh we thought let's just knock on a few doors, see if we can help people with uh making some videos for their businesses and it's grown. We work with companies like Google and Zero, a lot of other types of businesses as well. Um day is the same. Um, but Jay's also been best man at my wedding. I'm gonna be best man at his when uh when he goes through with it. Uh he has asked me by the way, not on that's not a chance to his head. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, yeah, and then you know we wanted to we we were both really interested in our ancestral home Cypress, and Jay was really passionate about wanting to do a documentary about it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_07I'll take this opportunity as well to introduce our guest presenter, um Emilios. Emilios, you didn't teach me the correct pronunciation. No, I say Lemon, you say Lemon Yadis.
SPEAKER_05There you go. Hi. Hello. And yeah, thanks, says. It's a pleasure to be part of this with you, and I'm really grateful to be to be talking about this and having the opportunity to talk about this with everyone as well. It's it's it's both from a film perspective, it's been an amazing accomplishment and one that's really touched me personally. And it's also happened at the same time that we're we've been doing a project on our identities or our separate identities here at the Tabstock as well. So it's come at a really important time, and it feels like there's a movement here, there's something happening. So I'm really glad you invited me to this bit of it as well.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. And I guess for listeners, Emilos is a child psychiatrist.
SPEAKER_05That's right, yeah. So I'm a I'm a child psychiatrist at the Tabstock. I've been here for almost 20 years now. I did my child psychiatry and systemic family therapy training here. So um I've been involved in the life and lives of kids and families in North London for yeah, almost 20 years here.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, there's a lot of North London accents going on. A lot of North London going on. I guess we should we should say that the dynamic in this conversation is that there's a Turkish Cypriot filmmaker, Greek Cypriot, filmmaker, Turkish Cypriot, psychotherapist, Greek Cypriot, psychiatrist. That's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And um my relationship to Cyprus is different in that my first best friend growing up was Turkish Cypriot, so it is close to my heart, and then my first proper boyfriend was Greek Cypriot. So you're my family then have some connections through through relationships, but maybe I have to say through food.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, oh you're you're Cypriot then. All of that just said there's yeah, well, okay.
SPEAKER_07Well I I guess we're really interested in what drew you to make the film, and I know you began to talk about it, Andreas about kind of this interest in your ancestral home. Um, but it'd be really nice to hear a little bit more about what kind of why now, where the energy came from, and what the kind of initial hope was about uh making this film.
SPEAKER_03Sure. So um about four years ago, it was pretty just before, yeah, it was just before COVID-19, and sort of our business pretty matured, got to a stage where we know we had the ability to maybe try um taking on a passion project, which you know, from a commercial point of view, doesn't um pay benefit straight away. It's a long game, unlike obviously the corporate commercial work. Um, but you know, we were a bit more mature in a business, and we, you know, we we had this chat, and I kind of said to Andy, I feel like without um sounding too egotistical, that we're the right people to do this. Growing up here in the UK, um there's a difference with the diaspora in terms of how we intermix, how we work together, how our many intermarry, um, you know, raise families together, run businesses together. Um and that doesn't happen as much in Cyprus. You know, there is still a geographical divide, a crossing point that you need to show your borders, uh, your passports to go through the border, you know, and we have a different experience growing up here, especially in Enfold, North London. So I felt that we could come at this subject with a viewpoint that hadn't been seen before. There had been Greek and Turkish Cypriot filmmakers that have made films before, but mostly they're they're from Cyprus. And I thought our Britishness and our um experience over here would maybe bring a fresh approach to it that would have a bit more empathy and a little less indoctrination on some of the systemic um biases maybe that that are that are perpetuated from the institutions when growing up in Cyprus. So that was really an inspiration. And we've always been fascinated around um you know how people end up hating each other, how people end up doing bad things to each other. Um and we wanted to explore that, and we wanted to explore the trauma sort of side by side and see if we could, by putting that trauma side by side, create more empathy and understanding. That was always the goal. How can we create more empathy and understanding? And and a lot of the content we've seen, you know, you only ever see one size trauma. So we we thought by putting that trauma side by side, it would bring something um that maybe sort of uh put people's barriers down in terms of uh the what what viewpoints they might have had, or maybe just made them feel differently, or or maybe even just spark an interesting conversation. Um, and it seems to be doing that. So yeah, we're pretty chuffed.
SPEAKER_07Um I'm really interested in what you just said about the as the fact of the influence of the Britishness, you know. Um, and we listened to the recorded Q ⁇ A, and you spoke a bit about that. That what really resonated with me is when you spoke about the story of growing up in London, um, having very close Turkish and Greek Cypriot friends, yeah. And then going to Cyprus, because that was my life as well. Every summer holiday we were in Cyprus, and I'd be like, bye to my mate. Um, and then we'd come back and you'd hear these stories, either be absorbed by stories, he would be absorbed by his own different stories, and we'd come back. And I think you mentioned it in the Q ⁇ A about the comparing of notes, and you're like, What that we're getting to do with these different sides, which people maybe from Cyprus weren't privy to, which talk about the indoctrination.
SPEAKER_08So I'm wondering how that influenced the filmmaking and the hope, and yeah, I mean, I mean that totally happens like a lot, and actually wasn't as civil as how how eloquent you put that. You know, I remember going on holiday with all of my friends, and um I made like a flip of comment saying you invaded us, you know. And that's like a thing I can really agree with. I was also shocked. This is what I think invaded and um and I was kind of like surprised when they saw it completely differently. Um I think it was because we lose such great friends that we could kind of sit back and kind of reflect and think what is previously, what more about this story? So you know I went back to the UK and kind of working in on my own, and when I went back to the five pressure, I remember going into a village and talking to Greek people and we did start to see that there was a lot more serious situation. Um I think that's what you need, you need good people around you to to to have debates with, to have conversations with, and I think like slowly slowly you both into each each other thing.
SPEAKER_03One thing I'll add to that as well is it geographically, um Andy's village where he would have spent his summer holidays, Paralimni, and my village um in the north, Yenibuazici, are literally like 40 minutes away. It's so close, it's so close once you go through the Famagusta crossing point. Um and we we done that journey just a few months ago when we were in Cyprus, and it it it was it's crazy when you think about it. As teenagers, we would both go to the same island, but it was like we were in two different countries and with two different uh teachings of of the history, and we'd come back to the UK and then have these interesting debates as 17, 18-year-olds. Um, but I think that catalyst of empathy started at that point, you know. Even as 17, 18 year olds, we were we were very curious to learn about the others' experience, and I think that's been super super beneficial for us.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I'd also say that there was a couple of films as well that had like a deep impact on us as well, that really influenced us as well. And that we watched these at school together and we studied them. And I said it to Jay the other day that actually I think actually this that made a big difference to to mold in the way we think. Yeah, the the two films in question were American History X, don't know if you guys have seen it, um, and uh a French film called La Haye, which is I think is translated to hate. Um and it was the first time I think we were both kind. of exposed to a subject of like hatred being a bit of a vicious cycle. Um and seeing the point of view of very likable characters in a film who who who had some wild some wild kind of um ideologies and seeing how they kind of got there and then seeing that transformation by the end of the film I think was quite inspiring. I probably think you could see that within the fly I don't know kind of goes on that journey as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah I mean just linking that to something that you guys were saying earlier and I think like before I say what I say is like I think the Britishness and and I feel British first really and that's part of me and I think part of you as well that that identity it's almost like we've got this privilege of being in this space that enables us to look on and experience the whole thing in a very different way and that I almost felt having watched it and also seen other family go through that that we've we've not had to go through that experience. We've not had to go through the trauma the horror story in the same kind of way we've been observers of it and we've been recipients of it in a secondary way. And and I think linking with what you were saying earlier it was interesting that they were making horror stories, horror films. Yeah because it to me coming out of it it it felt like I'd gone to see a horror movie right and when I was talking to friends about going to see it I said don't go with your kids on a Saturday night expecting to see a normal film. This is not you know we're going out and gonna eat popcorn and have a happy time it's it's it has an impact. It has an impact it had an impact on me.
SPEAKER_03It it does have it it does have an it's interesting hearing what you're saying about it being a horror film and I see that now in when when you're talking to it but there is so much empathy and Jane I think like it you know there's so many things that are woven through the film and and and the stories that people share are kind of like horror stories about war, about trauma about the the impact of that on communities on on individuals but there's so much empathy and novel you think that you managed to sort of capture that and I I suppose I'm curious going into making film did you think about the balance of those things in any way or how how did they find their way to light yeah I mean I'm first to admit and I tell this to people the same way I give them that warning this is not a sunshine and rainbows movie this is this is a hard watch you know I've watched it so many times and I still find it hard to watch still I I want to look away because it's so painful you know um and I still get emotional watching it. Like it's still even though I you know I've worked on it so much it's it still gets me emotional watching it. But I believed I always believed that I I felt like we need to show people the atrocities we need to deeply get people to feel the pain the the absurd nature of what our people done to each other before we can show them the light. Yeah and I've because there's um a train of thought that I had where there's a lot of accountability that's been thrown away from Cypriots where it's been it was all Turkey it was all Greece it was all NATO it was all CIA it was all America it was all Great Britain and while there's truth in those uh antagonists to be able to just blame them and not take any accountability for the traumas that happened that was something that never sat right with me. And I felt no I want to show the awful things that Cypriots done to each other um let people feel that pain and then hopefully that pain is so visceral that the message of unity hope and empathy which you see play out in the last 20 minutes or so when you see you know this beautiful story of of Tefgular Turkish Cypriot helping Christina a Greek Cypriot find her missing relatives and then you see it with um Kemal and Andromaki who have this beautiful friendship and and are actively trying to help unite the island and these guys are you know receiving death threats and you know being called traitors by their own community but they're fighting through it and I I think that ending has that impact because we go through such a painful 60 minutes before it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And um when you was talking it was reminding me of kind of the aesthetics of how you use photographs in the film where they were kind of brought to life through motion right um and I wonder what the intended impact was for you because I felt it was kind of re it was it was taking away some of my kind of like um what's the word um insensitivity maybe or to to the trauma where I've heard the story for my whole life so seeing the picture by itself may not have had the same reaction in a way to someone seeing it for the first time but seeing it in a different way where it kind of got brought to life evoked something. So I wonder if that was intentional or or what what visually what you thought might be happening.
SPEAKER_03Yeah vi visually I mean I think there's cinematicness as much cinematicness in a photo as there is video um sometimes even more because there's the stillness of the face you know if you even if you animate that face and have a bit of movement and separate the the the background and the foreground you can almost feel the pain sorrow love whatever the feeling is in the face of that of that photo so I I I love photography. I think it's cinematic and um for certain uh periods we don't have video footage so that's why bringing those photos to life were were really important to us. And it's just a uh it it's a clever way to be resourceful as well when you don't have a lot of budgets as independent filmmakers. Buying the archive footage was super expensive and it's it's been it's been our biggest um biggest hurdle to why the film took so long to make is because we were saving up money to to license the archive footage. So we had to be clever we could only we only had a certain amount of budget to archive uh to use the archive license so that's why animating photos was actually a more cost effective but still cinematic way of uh achieving that goal yeah just just to add to that like with um we can tell when we're crafting a video if we're going to be able to hold people's attention and part of yeah there's a lot of history to get through in in the island and a lot of people a lot of people's stories that need that we need to get through but we need to make sure that it's it's interesting going all the way through and it captivates people all the way through.
SPEAKER_08So what we try and do is add layers of depth and that that could be the tone of the music at that point. It could be just that slight movement that's happening within an image where we call that like a parallax effect. All of these things are designed so you can really get invested in what people are saying and and I think even down to the colour and the look of the film all of these things they're just the ingredients that that make it more potent I believe and make that message come through even more and but symbolically there was something there about the film and this narrative around Cyprus the frozenness of it the frozen trauma and that that when the pictures came alive that's symbolically what was yeah yeah yeah and if you go to someone's house on both sides of it they've got family members sitting there in those frozen images and you might be having coffee and badlava together and the other family members the lost ones are still there they're still there and it's that's for me that's an eternal image of Cyprus I've always had that when I've gone back there's always someone's house we go to that is still yearning for that person and it it communicates it perfectly it communicated it is really interesting that you that that that you guys took that from from from from that imagery actually you know it's amazing sometimes how people encode and decode the movie um I love it.
SPEAKER_03I absolutely love it really gave me goosebumps thinking about it because my my uh late grandmother's house was exactly as you just described every single wall was full of photo frames black and black and white images of family members the whole the whole place was a shrine and that's candy there one time as well and it it it that wasn't a conscious decision you know in terms of what you've just said there but it it maybe it was a subconscious uh a count subconscious creative filmmaking choice but yeah that's um yeah that's uh brought back a smile to my face thinking about my grandmother's house and all the photos on the wall what about some of the worries you both might have had in making the film both relationally as good friends doing this but also going back into your own communities and but also the response potential responses what were some of those stories um look I mean we always knew that there would be uh negative reaction from extremists on both sides making this film um and that that has been part of this process you know it's whether it's online on social media accounts or whether it's at the live QAs there's always someone that said oh you left this out and this made us look this way or the other side says you left this out and people will pick apart some of the history and say oh you've tried to position it this way and we we knew that making a 90 minute film about Cyprus was always going to have that. You're always gonna get you know extremists that try to pick it apart and say it's propaganda. It's not nice being called a traitor by your own community or those type of accusations but you know deep down I believe you know we're true patriots because we're trying to create empathy and understanding. So when you have that core belief and you know how uh positive your intention is and how much respect you have for you know your your fellow Cypriots then you can sleep easy at night because you know the intention is clear and that that was communicated to everyone that was working on the film.
SPEAKER_08Yeah I I I I would just also say like Miles was slightly different on this and it's because me and Jay are both two very different people as well like we we we're we're a beautiful partnership in terms of we're quite opposite with how we like our skill sets and where we handle things and and whatnot. But I think our our efforts have always been and our integrity have always matched and I think that's why it's always worked with us. And one thing I believe Jay has probably more so than I do is an unbelievable vision and confidence in design ability our ability to to achieve something quite great. Whereas I probably traveled more not not in the sense that we couldn't be the ones to tell the story but having like a deep fear what are people going to think of me what was my community going to think of me you know are people gonna think we've got massive ego to be able to take on such a big subject you know like it was very much like that for me. So I think probably my I transitioned quite dramatically as a person from where we started this film to to where we are today. But that's where great you know partnerships happen and uh and I think that's what I think that authenticity from both of us does come from the film.
SPEAKER_05I think it's really interesting that what you've done and it's it's kind of displayed in the Q ⁇ A at the end when you talk together is that you had to form an us right and you've been working on it all your lives it seems but you formed an us right and that us is a representation of how people can work together across the community divide right and you model it really well and actually it's what we have to we've been doing we've had to work on an us and hold that and actually when I was watching the film when you had Macarios and Denk Tash or the other lead together they didn't look like an us those two didn't look like they were ever going to sort stuff out together right no how how interesting is that archive footage as well seeing they were like they were both walking next to each other but they weren't together do you know I mean like if they were they weren't a couple right and it's that couple that holds the space together and we've had to work hard on our project internally as well haven't we and we've had to you know work things out and be but also respect the other and hold the other in mind when we're making steps or communications and and I think that's um seeing you guys achieve it is also uh a kind of demonstration to the world that that works. And you guys you and Julie as well you you know making the systemic way of things is a is a is a coming together.
SPEAKER_08Yeah thank you and I I must just add to that as well like a lot of people would think that I was I should be like a some sort of gatekeeper as the Greek Cypriot make sure this doesn't go any which way because it's a Turkish director but I I must say on that side I've never had any fears or any worries about how Jay wanted to tell the story because I know him as a person and I know he you know I know that truth is important and he would hold everybody accountable um in that sense. So that was never really a thing I thought I'd try to thank you.
SPEAKER_03I know when I was um in the audience last night and I know and you were both fair and there was a QA and um I think there was a reflection from someone actually about how the film sort of resonates on on a global level at the moment perhaps with like the Middle East for example um and I guess I was just I suppose we're talking now aren't we about how you create a NAS how you create togetherness um did you think of it in sort of more of that sort of meta way at all when you were making it yeah 100% I mean that really come through especially in the edit process so when we got the first uh the first cut which was like two hours and 10 minutes um it felt a lot more heavy on on the the Cypriot history and what we found from test screenings was uh non-Cypriots were not as engaged and it would be confusing and a bit a bit just too much detail around the you know we're talking about a very complex political history and the more you go into that level of nuance on that the more you lose the global themes you know so we tried to sort of chop out some of that stuff so that we could have more of the geopolitics around colonialism, propaganda division hey resonate on on trauma etc which these these these are all themes that are are relevant now and have always been relevant in any type of war or conflict or division. So um that balance actually was really something that we tried really hard to work on during the edit process because we don't want this to be a film just for Cypriots although obviously it's in it's super important for Cypriots to watch um but we do believe that the themes in here could have a positive impact on anyone's life.
SPEAKER_05I had uh probably my most touching moment yesterday from um any of the QA's that we've had and I was speaking to uh uh a guest who watched a film and he said to me I was really moved in one scene and I was like what scene was that sir and he said the scene where uh Tom Fort's mayor the therapist is speaking about um when a child uh feels safe because they're around parents that are happy and he broke down he started crying in front of me and his wife and daughter had to console him and he said to me now I understand why I never saw my mum and dad happy and his mum and dad were were victims of of the conflict in the 60s and it gives me goosebumps thinking about it now but what I'm trying to get with this point is that you don't have to be a Cypriot to connect with that moment of the film you know and I I hope you know from a kafatic point of view that non-Cypriots will be able to relate with those type of moments that are sprinkled throughout divided island I mean I think the bit of of it for me that kind of left a lasting impression my understanding of people right I I I feel like I've devoted my life to understanding people and communities and the way we live in those spaces was the way you articulated the polarization that happened like like and it was almost as if there was a sudden message from somewhere and I don't I still don't know where that somewhere was right that suddenly ripped through the communities and as I'm speaking about it I'm getting boot goosebumps talking about it right and suddenly even the kids at school even in the classroom sitting next to each other it was like it was an us you and me are separate and it that division suddenly and then it just got worse and more and more and more far apart and it's it's like where did that message come from and where do those messages come from and suddenly how do people suddenly reposition themselves very quickly in a in an almost um brain based way I don't know like a like a biological way very quickly well what we know from history is that doesn't happen easily right since 74 if it if the story is that it was quite a dramatic shift from a community living together for hundreds of years yeah to in in the whole kind of grand scheme of it it happened in the overnight it wasn't overnight but in the grand scheme of it yeah but the return the undoing of that trauma is a much harder and longer process and that's why this film is so inspiring because when we watched it and we spoke about it this is a systemic intervention this is beyond the film right this is something that the community can heal from yeah and that gives me goosebumps talking about what thank you for saying that thank you guys part of activism and this is this is an example of it thank you that's that's that was always uh you know ambitious goal that this film would have that impact um to hear you guys have felt that that that means a lot to us and just like that moment that interaction I had with that viewer last night um it makes all the trouble and difficulty and hate messages and of making a film like this all just fall off your back like no worries when you're getting you know those type of reactions you're like call me a traitor if you want look at the positive positive outcomes we're having on people um that feels good I for me Amelia when you were saying and when I was listening I was trying to think there's so many moments in that film um and things stories that you share I think one of the ones when I was listening just then was I I can't remember his name as a a man and and he talks about
SPEAKER_04being a child and being taught to love and never thinking that he'd actually grow up and kill a man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And that there were many other people in the in the film who speak in in that way that really touched me. And I I was just wondering about in terms of the process, how how did you choose, how how did you get those people to speak and how were those stories chosen?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so it was a uh a a case of working out the the narrative structure that we wanted to cover. So we we created um 30 scenes or topics that we wanted to be the the loose grip for the film. And then we went about working on well who are the best people to communicate those scenes and the the conflicts within those scenes. And we basically done um what we would normally do in terms of finding talent for a film it's sort of using social media, using Facebook groups, messaging them, sending questionnaires if people wanted to participate in this documentary, we got flooded with literally hundreds of applicants that people wanted to share their stories. Some just wanted to share their stories verbally. They didn't want to be on camera. So that kind of ruled out a lot of people and then others that said they were happy to be on camera we set up Zoom calls with them, had discussions with them. They sort of had to be solved by us by our intentions and where we were coming from with it, the angle that we were approaching it with. And we selected people based on that others was just word of mouth you know I I I like to personally network and speak to people because sometimes personal introductions are the best and I just asked all my elders all you know well connected people within the communities who do you know that lived through this in the 50s who do you know that lived through this in the 60s who'd you know that experienced this in 74 and then you know you you don't have to go too far to find a Cypriot that was affected by by the conflict you know probably one in two to one in three people have got a story so if you go back a certain generation. So um that that was really and then others sort of just reached out as well I I you know for people like Andre Kostvanova, United Cypress now, James Ker Lindsay, these were people that I really wanted to feature in the film and I personally just hunted them down and reached out to them and said look I think you're the best person to fill this gap in the in the documentary do you want to be part of it um so it was a mixture of those three avenues.
SPEAKER_05Yeah I mean it was interesting you had the British voice there as well right so it was interesting that the British voice was the voice of the historian of the political specialist of the international he was almost um leveling the scene and allowing you to feel empathy for one group at this time and then understand the needs of the other and it was like almost like the mature voice but it was also the the voice of the of the colonialist as well at the same time right 100% and they got asked this question last night as well um and yeah I mean it it it was a purposeful choice you know and that's countered with Andrea Kosvanova who's a Greek Cypriot uh historian from um and we thought that was a good balance to have um uh personally as well I felt as the director of this film if I did have a Turkish Cypriot historian then there would have been loads of accusations of bias and it just wouldn't have helped sort of uh get people in the room so we've made we've made the conscious choice not to have a Turkish Cypriot historian and have a Greek Cypriot historian and a British historian for that reason.
SPEAKER_08That was one of the creative decisions but but also as well just James Kerlinse um is one of the best around in terms of the work that he's done and is continuing to do um but if you do read his work I feel it it is one of the most balanced uh British viewpoints and that was important um and also you know the colonial history is something that is part of Cyprus's history Britain Britain was a character and maybe an antagonist protagonist whichever one you want to say in the story um and why not hear it from from the British it's not not like James Curlin's responsible for Britain's colonial um hopefully not yeah yeah yeah but there's something that you was working through in terms of managing the risk of coming across bias or being biased perhaps with your own internal narratives right that might have influenced so addressing that was creating a bit of balance in the storytellers the different storytellers of the historians and the filmmaking storytellers yeah you have you have to just strike a balance really so to get both audiences in the cinema or an on-demand platform because that's the goal is we need these guys everyone to watch this you know and we don't want anyone to say like there's nothing that is going to bring them closer to the subject um so it's very important to strike the balance for both for both communities to hear some some things that they might not you know heard before um and to keep them captivated enough all the way through so they could leave with that question right that's that's interesting.
SPEAKER_05The thing about balance for me that I took away and it was interesting was that actually I had to let go of it being balanced that actually the value was in hearing the other story that you've not heard right that's the value and if it's this way or that way you know by a few degrees one way or the other the most valuable thing for me and other people that I've spoken to is hearing the other side hearing the bit that we didn't grow up with hearing the gap and and that was the most important bit and I had to oh what about this bit in history and what about that bit in history we missed out this or you know I know I could do that research on my own but hearing the the story and the feeling and the impact that was that was the value and that was however hard it was that was what I needed to hear. And I think what our communities need to hear in order to do that moving forward in a safe space.
SPEAKER_08Yeah I mean I think that's uh uh fantastic feedback to hear I appreciate that because it it does come back to you I mean it is a it is a weird one with the balance thing it's like well how do you quantify balance like how is it is it minutes on screen is it number of Cypriots featured is it like what what's this what is the metric to quantify the balance dead people right is that yeah but yeah exactly yeah okay so that yeah we do get that accusation from both sides um of you know like you said degrees of imbalance here or there and it's like you're missing the point of this film you're missing the point the putting the putting the the trauma side by side and here and and hopefully having empathy for the other side's pain is the point of this film how how would you guys say that um people like who have been you know have have have had war trauma war trauma how do how how how do you see their journeys and how they big question isn't it and I guess knowing my own story of my mum was someone who lived through the war I see the trauma in her and wasn't nowhere aware of that connection as a kid but as an adult especially going into the field that I've gone into it's it's allowed me to soften um my responses and reactions to her in many ways or to it to find meaning and understanding in some of her extreme worries that I would be like what are you talking about mum like but she's someone who lived in the height of the war where she was a 17 year old woman which is high high risk demographic right in in the war um having to care for siblings and noticing the ongoing impact of that on her of this struggle of sense of safety as well as and this is probably a wider immigrant story of um having to constantly do constantly do you have to do things you have to be occupied you have to be um distracted in a way to manage these feelings and I see the legacy of that in me and I have to work through that um but in many I'm quite I think I'm quite similar as well actually I can relate yeah I think a lot of Cypriots are in many ways and making that connection to the impact of being a generation of parents who have experienced war and displacement makes sense.
SPEAKER_05Yeah I think for me says it's really interesting because part of the film has made me remember like really early experiences I was born in 73 and so 74 you know it was all happening and it all happened and I think there was a big emotional imprint of that on me in my early experiences through my family and what they were going through and I think what it all what it did for me was be very um sensitive to to other people's pain and being able to sniff pain or see pain and feel pain very acutely and be able to work towards it and also a really strong feeling of healing something of needing to heal something and I think that's what drove me into to medicine to healing to therapy to working with people and I think the conversations we've been having and the work we've been doing in today is actually it's almost like a culmination of that and I feel so um so grateful to be part of it and to be beginning to have these conversations now because it feels like it's almost been like a life work coming to this point and having to do all that studying and practice or whatever just to have this conversation in a real in in a kind of technical way using our theory and our training and all that stuff but actually to be authentic with it as well and and personal you know this is personal stuff we're talking about.
SPEAKER_07And also something about um the legacy of the trauma but then also growing up some of our absolute closest and dearest friends were Greek Cypriots. So I'd have that story but have the real lived experience of being like we talking about like we're they're lovely people like they're that his mum speaks the way you speak like it's that kind of stuff about I'm more connected to these other Cypriots that are othered in my narratives to anybody else I've ever met in this country. So having that dual story has allowed me I think um it's given me this I think anyway view to like see people beyond their labels or their first single stories.
SPEAKER_05Because it doesn't always it doesn't it never fit it never fit as a kid I mean it's interesting isn't it because I think the struggle we've had here and I've I feel I've had in my life is everyone talks about us as if we're different everyone talks about us as if we're different right but they're talking about like a minuscule percentage right so everyone loves to focus on that difference right and separate and they work on that to keep us apart and I feel that I feel that in the way people frame our culture or frame my identity but actually it's our it's our similarities it's our similarities bro it's like 99% so we need to value that and actually when they were talking about the genetics I thought that nailed it because then it was like shut up just shut up right yeah you know and that's metrics isn't it that's pontification right though a lot of people studied that stuff right what is it something different and it's like and also not only that we all come from these different backgrounds as well like the the Italian the Armenian the Jewish the Lebanese it's like that's that's what our mix is and we shared that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah that was I don't know that information at all many people don't know that information and that was that was key as well in terms of um really just uh maybe making those with extreme views look at things differently that I I know many people that are refuse to take an ancestry test or a uh DNA test uh because they don't want to be upset that they might not be you know the the the identity well yeah we don't know the accuracy of all of this stuff right but yeah from a pinch of salt it might not be the data that they want to see or that they would love to see. Well that that changes how you see yourself because how you see yourself or your identity I think is such a personal thing but the science of it might not be the data they want to see um but look that that aspect of the film was something that was always uh a fascination of ours as well like so if the Ottomans got here a certain amount of time ago the ancient Greeks got here a certain amount of time ago who was here before that because there must have been people before that and there's been studies you know there's there's there's bones and um remains in cyprus that are 10,000 years old there's even you know that's that's an insane amount of time you know the the ancient Greeks didn't get there until 4000 years ago. So for that 6,000 years there was indigenous people on that island.
SPEAKER_08Exactly so it's a it it's a it's a really fascinating part of the issue I mean I would like to make a documentary just on that of it to be really interesting actually like hearing this whole conversation because I've been thinking like yeah like you think about the Cyprus situation it's just one massive identity crisis isn't it like you know it's yeah well we want analysis because we think we're part of Greece you know well what does that make me hard in here you know it's just just trying to understand like who you are as a person at the core of it and when someone's trying to tell you you're not you know you don't belong that's causes problems.
SPEAKER_03But the fascinating thing that you know you guys have said as well that you've experienced is that you can try to divide but we're drawn to each other when we're in close proximity. Yeah me and Jay sorry I was gonna say we had a job in in Cyprus and I remember going to Jay's village and all the grandads there they was like the exact same as the Greek granddad's all playing uh backgammon uh all had like little peanuts in the top pocket chewing um sticking their sticking like these little rosaries on their hands what's like this is like a carbon copy yeah the the talk we're doing soon we we gave it a title they don't go with that title did they um dolma dolmades that's what we called it and I like that nice I imagine ancient people if you ever do that documentary Jay I'm sure they probably ate dolma and dolmades yeah yeah yeah 10 000 years off that's like the indigenous stuff there isn't it sort of like yeah it's a little bit can I ask you guys a question actually because this is something that me and Andy were were were talking about today and it was for those that watched a film um and let's say they experienced trauma and that trauma has created a lot of the feel a feeling of hate and seeing the other still as the enemy and not being able to see um that both sides you know committed atrocities and that you know both sides were perpetrators of atrocities for those that have that visceral reaction because we've had this in in some Q ⁇ A screenings where people were like refused they were just like I don't believe it you know because that wasn't their world experience or or their war experience for those that still have that hate in their heart what what's the first step if it is a family member if it is uh a friend uh and this you've shown them this film and it still hasn't really moved the needle for them i mean it it is it professional help what what what would you advise is the first step really interesting question isn't it we we started talking about something yeah and it's hopefully it's connected about what how this film could be used therapeutically and should be shown to an audience where um pausing at certain times asking questions reflective questions and and doing an intervention in that way um I think the what my thinking of that is supporting people to one honour their stories that they've got because there's a function to those stories right there's an adaptation that's come from having to hold on to those stories a legacy of things that have happened in their lives so asking people to immediately move away from a story that they've held on to is not realistic or sometimes even useful but helping people unpack this stuff and explore alternative stories or newer stories alongside that that might soften that dominant idea that they've got about their experience what other some of the stories that come across alongside it which is what this film does right it puts the personal stories alongside each other that helps people move away from being stuck to their single dominant idea of this is what happened and this is my relationship to that story.
SPEAKER_05Yeah and I think the word honouring is really important the word honouring is really important because we didn't live that we didn't live that in the same way these people lived it and had to act to survive or do what they had to do in that moment. I don't get the impression that anyone you know did this because they wanted to you know it wasn't it was a had to from everybody's perspective for the whole period it felt like people were pulled in this direction now I I don't want to get rid of individual responsibility from that and there were some hard perhaps illegal things that happened right or clearly illegal things that happened right and we need to accept that as well but it felt as if people were doing it for a higher purpose of some sort for them for their family for their community and I think if we can if that can be honored in some way then that helps a process of reconciliation yeah I think as relational therapists as systemic is really looking at the relationships between people you would want to create dialogue and again in a way the film is a vehicle for that right and um it would even for me yeah even for me it would be at times hard to move myself away from stories that I've been told through my life yeah because of feeling I think you said it Andrea it's a bit like the the sense of betrayal the narratives of betrayal how do I dishonour the stories of my aunties and my uncles but also move to a more helpful place and that it's a process that happens no I was just gonna say I mean maybe you've said it I it it just made me think about what are the what's possible what are the stories or a part of a story that you can let go of you're not asking so you know what is what feels okay a place to move to in some way because yeah yeah there are some things that maybe you can't I mean I'm thinking even in the film like when you're talking one of the women talking about losing a son
SPEAKER_04You know, you can't ever, you know, how can that that's something that probably you do live with. There probably are some stories you don't ever let go of, right? But like you were saying, César, there are probably lots of stories around as well. And uh where is there some space for some movement? So it's free dialogue, I think. But yeah, you were gonna say something, Andreas.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I I was gonna just basically say that I think something me and Jay both find very interesting is like when we was actually like conceptualizing the film as well, is like I wonder what someone who was in Ilka does feel like, you know, what does someone who was in the TNT feel like, you know, like although it's an opposing idea to what we have. I think it's interesting to be able to see how somebody got there because I believe that most people their ideologies are for what they think are good, you know, what they believe to be right and believe to be good. So I think the more we can understand that and have good conversation around it rather than just shutting it down, it might not lead to such like disastrous situations. Um of course you could say as well that something would just find the mighty and just in in the in the makeup. I do wonder like if we could make it apart a bit more rather than just automatically saying some of the fashions or races or something like this and trying to buy a fee for me. What was the actual concern here that modeling for lots of other things? I don't know. I think we we could make a make a big impact like to that same situation with like the Middle East, like there's some genuine concerns there on both sides, you know, like could could we unpick some stuff here? So yeah, we find that interesting.
SPEAKER_07I was gonna just add to that, I guess thinking about steps forward. Um something again you mentioned earlier, and in our discussions it come up about the use of language, yeah, and the delicate use of language, the ethical and empathetic use of language, particularly around um invasion versus intervention. And you you you talk about that beautifully in the film, right? You kind of tell the stories, and I think when people can then take care around those languages, um that's also a step towards shifting and moving from the trauma stories.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I mean, I totally totally agree with that. That that's that's one of the things that polarizes our communities. Yeah, you know, it can get a Turkish Cypriot's blood boiling when they hear the word invasion, and it will get a Greek Cypriot's blood boiling when they hear peace operation. You know, and that's that's why we we chose intervention as the more neutral words, you know, not the one that's either or it's kind of the one in the middle. And we get we get criticism for that as well. Um we but we felt that was the most neutral word. Um, but it does matter, language massively matters, you know, and this is a discussions I have all the time with like Turkish Cypriots that might say, Yeah, but the Greeks did this to us. And it's like, oh hold up, hold up. Don't say the Greeks did this to us. It wasn't the Greeks, it was certain people in charge of those people. And you you hear that a lot, yeah, the opposite way. The Turks did this. It wasn't your Turkish neighbor that done this, you know. You can't generalize by you know with those with those type of terms. So that is something that's really important to us, is we do think that language massively matters in this situation.
SPEAKER_04Um I'm just very conscious of time and moving towards an end. And I know there's probably so many things that we could talk about, but we always on our podcast, we always end with like future hopes. And I'm sure people who are listening as well, I want them to also get to hear where they can come and watch and catch the film. Um, so what are your future hopes of the films? What where where can people go and and see it?
SPEAKER_03So at the minute we're in cinemas for another sort of two weeks, um, mostly in and around the North London area, so Cinema Denfield, the art house. Um, but we do have a couple of showings in South London, Belfast, Manchester as well. Um, so to go to book to view the film in the cinemas, you've got to go to www.thedividisland.com and the links are there. It is limited show-ins and tickets are selling out fast, so do snap them away where you can on a few of the shows.
SPEAKER_07Can I just pause you, Jay? Just we need to like mention the how popular the film is as well, right? And how it's blown up. Like we we haven't really mentioned it, right? Well, did that take you by surprise? Or I mean what what was the response to that? Uh, I guess there would have been a few showings, and now it's gone Cineworld. And did you mention Jay that it kind of out it outsold um Venom, right? And I mean it's crazy. It is crazy.
SPEAKER_03You know, we we when we were speaking to the to the cinemas about showcasing the film and specifically Cineworld, they were very hesitant. They were like, documentaries don't do well at the cinema. And uh I said to them, just give us a chance, give us two screens, give us Cinema Denfield, Cineworldwood Green, and I promise you this will do well. And those two screens have now become multiple screens and multiple showings. Um, and yeah, we told we you know, we we had the bigger box office taken that weekend at Cinewald Enfield than Venom 3, which is a you know multi-million pound box office. But I feel I I don't want it to say in a bragging way, but it's it's a case of I I always felt there was a a yearning to watch a film about this subject done in this way, and the Cypriot community and non-Cypriot communities have been fantastically supportive in coming out in these cold winter nights to watch this film. Um because I uh as well, there isn't many films made by Cypriots in the cinema. That's um you know, you don't get to see people that look like you, sound like you, that sound like you uncle on the big screen. Um you know, and and and and I think that yeah, uh Cypriots are proud, proud of who they are and their identity, and the opportunity to see those stories and those voices and those accents and those textures of Cyprus on the big screen, um, I think is one of the reasons why people have have have gone out and supported us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08We always thought, yeah, we would love to see something like this, but it has been a humbling experience as well, just just seeing how people are locked into it. Um it's not something you can easily get used to, but we're we're we're enjoying the process, yeah. We're enjoying yeah, we're enjoying everything that comes with it at the moment, you know, the the nice comments, the the the debates, all of it, you know, it's uh I think I think it's great. Uh I think it that if we're talking, it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_07And it's on for a few more weeks, is it?
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, at the minute we're we're uh going into like the first week of December with screen ins. If you can watch it at the cinema, please do because there's something really special about watching it in a collective space with with others and just people having healthy discussions at the bar afterwards. Um that that is what you want as a filmmaker. Um but if you don't have a chance to watch it at the cinema, then we hope for a digital release early next year.
SPEAKER_07Cool, nice. There's so many more questions about thank you.
SPEAKER_08I really enjoyed it actually. Hopefully, we could do this again. Uh, because I think we could extend this conversation massively. Uh yeah, we're up for doing a part two. Yeah, really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_05Definitely. There's quite a few things to add that we'd say it would be really great.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, or even do it if we did an intervention, come and speak about that in some way and how that's done. That would be great.
SPEAKER_03That would be fantastic. Happy to help. Yeah, I love that. Nice one.
SPEAKER_04Lovely to meet you.
SPEAKER_08Lovely to meet you guys as well. Thank you for supporting the film as well. Really appreciate that. Very good.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Thanks a lot. It's been awesome. All the best.
SPEAKER_04Take care.
SPEAKER_03Bye guys.